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	<title>Comments on: it seems as if we&#8217;re being tricked into believing in that which we believe in</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blog.lantius.org/index.php/2006/01/17/it-seems-as-if-were-being-tricked-into-believing-in-that-which-we-believe-in/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blog.lantius.org/index.php/2006/01/17/it-seems-as-if-were-being-tricked-into-believing-in-that-which-we-believe-in/</link>
	<description>objective:  domination.</description>
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		<title>By: kelli lu</title>
		<link>http://blog.lantius.org/index.php/2006/01/17/it-seems-as-if-were-being-tricked-into-believing-in-that-which-we-believe-in/comment-page-1/#comment-320</link>
		<dc:creator>kelli lu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Nov 2006 16:05:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.lantius.org/?p=96#comment-320</guid>
		<description>hello!  stumbled across your blog via MightyMaggie&#039;s --

wanted to say, right on.  Though I don&#039;t know as much as I would like about the science (or not) of the origin-of-the-world debate, I so appreciated your final point and think it has ramifications no matter what culture war is currently being fought.  Christian subculture has often become so worked up about pet issues that it has neglected, tragically, the business of loving people -- and of course, the business of loving God Himself in His glory, and majesty, and ultimate beauty.  

It&#039;s encouraging to see someone saying this stuff -- and convicting -- though I see the lack of practical love, am I asking God how He might use me to fill it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>hello!  stumbled across your blog via MightyMaggie&#8217;s &#8211;</p>
<p>wanted to say, right on.  Though I don&#8217;t know as much as I would like about the science (or not) of the origin-of-the-world debate, I so appreciated your final point and think it has ramifications no matter what culture war is currently being fought.  Christian subculture has often become so worked up about pet issues that it has neglected, tragically, the business of loving people &#8212; and of course, the business of loving God Himself in His glory, and majesty, and ultimate beauty.  </p>
<p>It&#8217;s encouraging to see someone saying this stuff &#8212; and convicting &#8212; though I see the lack of practical love, am I asking God how He might use me to fill it?</p>
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		<title>By: lantius</title>
		<link>http://blog.lantius.org/index.php/2006/01/17/it-seems-as-if-were-being-tricked-into-believing-in-that-which-we-believe-in/comment-page-1/#comment-30</link>
		<dc:creator>lantius</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jan 2006 20:39:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.lantius.org/?p=96#comment-30</guid>
		<description>to be fair, the more i read about it, the more i think it is simply a huge logical gap.  to say that the empirical evidence points clearly towards design seems disingenuous, and it&#039;s quite unclear to me how behe defends that as his most reasonable explanation.

it seems as if he has preframed the dialogue as a religious debate.  finding a discontinuity in evolution theory seems a reasonable scientific step.  what it looks to me as behe is doing next is saying &#039;so piecewise evolution is wrong, therefore creationism&#039; - recycling an age-old debate.  is it really an either-or proposition?  

i also don&#039;t think that the media is misrepresenting the situation as badly as you suggest, because i think that this simple representation is a natural outflow of reducing it to a simple partisan debate.

the problem of course is that i don&#039;t particularly think partisan debates solve much.  you&#039;ll note in the gospels that jesus studiously avoids getting into back-and-forth matches, rather sidestepping the invitation to debate and refusing to get ensnared in things that don&#039;t matter.  

it&#039;s not something we as Christians have been very good at emulating.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>to be fair, the more i read about it, the more i think it is simply a huge logical gap.  to say that the empirical evidence points clearly towards design seems disingenuous, and it&#8217;s quite unclear to me how behe defends that as his most reasonable explanation.</p>
<p>it seems as if he has preframed the dialogue as a religious debate.  finding a discontinuity in evolution theory seems a reasonable scientific step.  what it looks to me as behe is doing next is saying &#8217;so piecewise evolution is wrong, therefore creationism&#8217; &#8211; recycling an age-old debate.  is it really an either-or proposition?  </p>
<p>i also don&#8217;t think that the media is misrepresenting the situation as badly as you suggest, because i think that this simple representation is a natural outflow of reducing it to a simple partisan debate.</p>
<p>the problem of course is that i don&#8217;t particularly think partisan debates solve much.  you&#8217;ll note in the gospels that jesus studiously avoids getting into back-and-forth matches, rather sidestepping the invitation to debate and refusing to get ensnared in things that don&#8217;t matter.  </p>
<p>it&#8217;s not something we as Christians have been very good at emulating.</p>
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		<title>By: Baus</title>
		<link>http://blog.lantius.org/index.php/2006/01/17/it-seems-as-if-were-being-tricked-into-believing-in-that-which-we-believe-in/comment-page-1/#comment-29</link>
		<dc:creator>Baus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jan 2006 02:55:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.lantius.org/?p=96#comment-29</guid>
		<description>Fishy-Schmishy.  Underinformed is exactly it.  Since when have the mainstream media been a reliable source for issues viewed as religious debates?... but this is clearly where so many are getting their (mis)information.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fishy-Schmishy.  Underinformed is exactly it.  Since when have the mainstream media been a reliable source for issues viewed as religious debates?&#8230; but this is clearly where so many are getting their (mis)information.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://blog.lantius.org/index.php/2006/01/17/it-seems-as-if-were-being-tricked-into-believing-in-that-which-we-believe-in/comment-page-1/#comment-28</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jan 2006 17:47:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.lantius.org/?p=96#comment-28</guid>
		<description>I was going to respond, but I think I&#039;ll relieve myself of the duty of acting the role of shrill, underinformed athiest.

I&#039;ll say that I agree with Lee and Maggie. Where&#039;s my yellow shirt?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was going to respond, but I think I&#8217;ll relieve myself of the duty of acting the role of shrill, underinformed athiest.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll say that I agree with Lee and Maggie. Where&#8217;s my yellow shirt?</p>
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		<title>By: maggie</title>
		<link>http://blog.lantius.org/index.php/2006/01/17/it-seems-as-if-were-being-tricked-into-believing-in-that-which-we-believe-in/comment-page-1/#comment-27</link>
		<dc:creator>maggie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jan 2006 00:03:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.lantius.org/?p=96#comment-27</guid>
		<description>Resident papist here, and if the &lt;a href=&quot;http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=1519041&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Pope says it&#039;s not science&lt;/a&gt;, then the matter is settled! But seriously, it seems fishy to me too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Resident papist here, and if the <a href="http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=1519041" rel="nofollow" onclick="javascript:pageTracker._trackPageview ('/outbound/abcnews.go.com');">Pope says it&#8217;s not science</a>, then the matter is settled! But seriously, it seems fishy to me too.</p>
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		<title>By: Baus</title>
		<link>http://blog.lantius.org/index.php/2006/01/17/it-seems-as-if-were-being-tricked-into-believing-in-that-which-we-believe-in/comment-page-1/#comment-26</link>
		<dc:creator>Baus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Jan 2006 06:24:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.lantius.org/?p=96#comment-26</guid>
		<description>Intelligent Design theory is not a &quot;since-we-have-no-scientific-explanation&quot; theory. It&#039;s about being honest with the actual empirical data.  For instance, evolution posits &quot;random&quot; and &quot;minute&quot; mutations, but the actual evidence given in systems of irreducible complexity is that such development is not possible. 
Similarly, the evidence of cosmological constants, etc is not that a miracle occurred, but that actual empirical statistical probabilities militate against randomness in such cases.
The arguments made by scientists along these lines concern the actual data, not the lack of explanations.  See Behe&#039;s own site with several popularly written articles:
http://www.arn.org/authors/behe.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Intelligent Design theory is not a &#8220;since-we-have-no-scientific-explanation&#8221; theory. It&#8217;s about being honest with the actual empirical data.  For instance, evolution posits &#8220;random&#8221; and &#8220;minute&#8221; mutations, but the actual evidence given in systems of irreducible complexity is that such development is not possible.<br />
Similarly, the evidence of cosmological constants, etc is not that a miracle occurred, but that actual empirical statistical probabilities militate against randomness in such cases.<br />
The arguments made by scientists along these lines concern the actual data, not the lack of explanations.  See Behe&#8217;s own site with several popularly written articles:<br />
<a href="http://www.arn.org/authors/behe.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.arn.org/authors/behe.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: lantius</title>
		<link>http://blog.lantius.org/index.php/2006/01/17/it-seems-as-if-were-being-tricked-into-believing-in-that-which-we-believe-in/comment-page-1/#comment-25</link>
		<dc:creator>lantius</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Jan 2006 23:38:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.lantius.org/?p=96#comment-25</guid>
		<description>a new reader!

i&#039;ll admit i&#039;m not as well-read a critic of intelligent design theory as others may be.  is there perhaps a peer-reviewed journal that discusses the current research going on in intelligent design?  

that said, i&#039;ve had the opportunity to attend a few lectures and be involved in a few conversations on the topic, so i at least have some familiarity with it. i&#039;m certainly open to learning new things, of course.

as far as i understand &quot;irreducibly complex systems&quot;, they are quite simply systems which we cannot explain how they came about in an evolutionary or progressive way.  similarly for the happy fact that the universe is a stable, predictable place with excellent values for the charge of the electron and the speed of light.  what are the odds?  science offers us no explanation for why we should be so fortunate to be so. at least, we cannot &lt;em&gt;currently&lt;/em&gt; explain these problems.  so while scientists are looking for an explanation, the intelligent design camp is saying &quot;don&#039;t bother looking, God did it with a miracle.&quot;  that&#039;s certainly fine, except it is a terrible cornerstone on which to build one&#039;s faith.  what happens when some enterprising young scientist is able to construct a reasonable narrative?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>a new reader!</p>
<p>i&#8217;ll admit i&#8217;m not as well-read a critic of intelligent design theory as others may be.  is there perhaps a peer-reviewed journal that discusses the current research going on in intelligent design?  </p>
<p>that said, i&#8217;ve had the opportunity to attend a few lectures and be involved in a few conversations on the topic, so i at least have some familiarity with it. i&#8217;m certainly open to learning new things, of course.</p>
<p>as far as i understand &#8220;irreducibly complex systems&#8221;, they are quite simply systems which we cannot explain how they came about in an evolutionary or progressive way.  similarly for the happy fact that the universe is a stable, predictable place with excellent values for the charge of the electron and the speed of light.  what are the odds?  science offers us no explanation for why we should be so fortunate to be so. at least, we cannot <em>currently</em> explain these problems.  so while scientists are looking for an explanation, the intelligent design camp is saying &#8220;don&#8217;t bother looking, God did it with a miracle.&#8221;  that&#8217;s certainly fine, except it is a terrible cornerstone on which to build one&#8217;s faith.  what happens when some enterprising young scientist is able to construct a reasonable narrative?</p>
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		<title>By: Baus</title>
		<link>http://blog.lantius.org/index.php/2006/01/17/it-seems-as-if-were-being-tricked-into-believing-in-that-which-we-believe-in/comment-page-1/#comment-24</link>
		<dc:creator>Baus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Jan 2006 22:29:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.lantius.org/?p=96#comment-24</guid>
		<description>Outside of what you&#039;ve read in the media, what have you actual read that explains Intelligent Design theory?  Do you even know what &quot;irreducibly complex systems&quot; are?  Do you at all scientifically conversant with the discussion about cosmological &quot;fine-tuning&quot;?
Do your homework.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Outside of what you&#8217;ve read in the media, what have you actual read that explains Intelligent Design theory?  Do you even know what &#8220;irreducibly complex systems&#8221; are?  Do you at all scientifically conversant with the discussion about cosmological &#8220;fine-tuning&#8221;?<br />
Do your homework.</p>
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